|
HTRYN
Oct 7, 2016 21:24:35 GMT
Post by bill on Oct 7, 2016 21:24:35 GMT
I bought the HTRYN class and now am struggling to decide which story to attack. My first story has been rewritten so many time, including beta readers and an editor. In my mind (though I know it's still the work of a novice and would benefit from further improvement) I am done with it until/unless an agent takes it and makes suggestions on how to improve. My second story has been rewritten several times (I am adding three scenes to complete it) and I had thought I would seek a beta reader for it in two weeks. I know it will need improvement but I'm ready to get outside, objective eyes on it. My third story I've completed a rough draft. I had planned to attack it next anyhow, so thought I would use this story to go through HTRYN. The fourth story I have around 20,000 very rough draft words and thought I would outline and complete it for Nanowrimo. I've had two people suggest (one is Holly) that I do the first story for HTRYN, since if the first doesn't sell neither will the others. This line of thinking makes sense, but I have a few things holding me back. 1) I've moved on from changing that story emotionally. Even though I know it isn't perfect and could probably use some solid work I can't imagine making significant changes. In general, I like the story. 2) Spending the next several months focusing on it keeps me away from creating other new stories and feels like it takes me backwards. 3) I keep hearing Dean Wesley (I think that was his name) saying to put it out there and let the readers decide and keep writing. His opinion I think would differ from what I'm getting from others on Holly's forum. My thought was that if I went through the class with book three and realized it would help with book one I could go back and do that afterward. I guess in my mind I can't imagine changing book one so fundamentally it would change my story in book three, but that would be the risk of going in the order. Another thought I just had while writing this: What if I took the mystery I wrote last month (the novella) or write a new story in November for Nano, then take one of those through the course to get a feel and understand for how the course works. Then I might have a more educated stance to make a decision on how to proceed with my series. This all screams to me that I don't have anything ready to publish, and that worries me. I'm ready to get some stuff out there. Well, thanks for listening.....
|
|
|
HTRYN
Oct 9, 2016 22:03:11 GMT
Post by Admin on Oct 9, 2016 22:03:11 GMT
You have a writer's brain that is expanding at a rapid rate. One reason I have never done NaNaNo is because it doesn't help me move forward toward my goals. I don't see much sense in putting 50,000 words on paper just to put words on paper. For it to make sense to me, I'd need to be putting 50,000 words down on the story that I'm ready to work on.
I say this because I think you need to take whatever story will move you toward a specific goal. You need to be walking toward your chosen path and not redoing, or marking time, on one that won't move you forward.
And not every story will need HTRYN. Not every story is broken. The purpose of HTRYN is to take it apart, analyze what is there, what doesn't work, and put it back together so its publishable. I suspect your first book is too close to done. It really doesn't need to be torn apart and analyzed. Once you begin to understand the process you'll know if there are weaknesses, and where those spots are, without having to take it apart.
It sounds like you're leaning toward the 3 story. Once you understand the elements, the steps, etc. you will most likely never have a broken manuscript again. You'll edit as your create and you will never again be satisfied to put words on paper that don't resonate with you. HTRYN is a big class. It has a ton of information in it to absorb. As you grow in the knowledge of the writing career, you're going to have work in all stages of development. It's the nature of the beast and inevitable.
You will have stories that are in planning stage, stories that have the scene cards developed, you'll have work floating around either in query letters or in submissions. You'll have books out and need to market. It's a huge career if you do it right.
Keep working on the re-release of Phyllis's book(s). Keep queries out on book #1. Keep writing down ideas for flash fiction and when you get time add to the number written. If you can decide what anthology you can have closest to release and piggy back on Phyllis's book. If it overwhelms you, lay the work out either on a spread sheet, or in a notebook. Take a look at what you've got and see if you can do a ball-park time line for releases. You might not meet those deadlines but it will give you an idea of time so you can see it.
Writing careers are big things. A lot to learn but the nice thing is, once you learn it you know it and you're that much further on the journey.
|
|
|
HTRYN
Oct 10, 2016 3:13:14 GMT
Post by bill on Oct 10, 2016 3:13:14 GMT
Thanks for the advice, this is truly helpful. I think I'll use the mystery I wrote for the HTRYN. It's almost half the size of my novels (though I honestly think it could end up being longer when I'm done). As I go through it I will discern where to proceed with the series.
I understand what you're saying about Nano. For me it was what it took to get me pushed started. I had a LOT of crap, but I had crap, which is better than nothing. Each year I've been more planned and my crap meter has lowered. It's useful for me because it pushes me to write faster than I'm comfortable with and gets me away from my analytical side more. I haven't nailed down exactly what I'm going to write, but it will probably be a combination of things as I have a lot of ideas going. I want to continue to focus on getting new material written as I learn how to revise.
I have spreadsheets for all my writings. Some sheets have several tabs (for the novels) I have two separate spreadsheets for the flash fiction - one for Flipper stories and one for everything else. Oh, and a third for newspaper column stories. I love my spreadsheets and it's the only way I can keep everything straight. I'd be lost without them!
|
|
|
HTRYN
Oct 10, 2016 12:06:32 GMT
Post by Admin on Oct 10, 2016 12:06:32 GMT
by time line I meant you actually take the stories you have and lay them out in the order you think they can be released. This is always up to change because Life will smack you around and make decisions without telling you. But if you can lay them out and sort of judge how much time each one will take, it will give you an idea of which one you should be pushing at any given point in time.
NaNo has helped a lot of people. For me, it seems to slow me down but then, ideas, and the actual writing has never been my problem. I have trouble maintaining focus on a single project and making sure I guard my time. I get very little of it just for me. I have trouble at the end of projects so my comfort zone is a different place than yours.
If you're putting words toward a specific goal then I see no problem with it. For me to find it useful I'd have to be working on whatever my current work in process is.
I'm heading home today. I'll get your story read sometime this week. Just had more visiting than I thought I would and so grateful that Kathy was kind enough to stay with me and give me that visiting time. We got JOsh and her hooked up viz google hangouts. They will be be working together all winter on Josh reading and growing in his communication skills. Good for him and good for her.
I'll probably be on this evening. Maybe not for very long, I'll be tired. but I'll check in before I head for bed tonight.
|
|
|
HTRYN
Oct 10, 2016 13:23:25 GMT
Post by bill on Oct 10, 2016 13:23:25 GMT
I haven't laid out a time line but have had one in the back of my head. I should write it down - everything looks different written down.
I can put out some flash fiction immediately (and thought I might), but I'm not convinced that's the best strategy. I could put out the first book in my series, but again, not convinced that is best. I have three project in the works (including the mystery), which could possibly come out soon. Okay, this is where I'm stuck. I don't have a good strategy. It's too easy to put this part off, I guess.
As I think about it my big hangup is the series. If I was confident enough to put out the first book then I could plow forward with the rest. \
|
|
|
HTRYN
Oct 10, 2016 23:02:25 GMT
Post by Admin on Oct 10, 2016 23:02:25 GMT
I will be putting out the last book in a trilogy spring of 2017. I'm very interested to find out how marketing a complete work is compared to books in a series. One reason you're torn is lack of experience. You really can't know what publishing and marketing is until you actually make the leap and put a product out. You have to do the leap of faith. I only had one book ready so I had no choice. I went with what I had. You have a choice so I would write down everything you've got. See, on paper, what is ready, what is close, what lines up in the work order. And then use your logic to figure out a plan of action. There really is no right or wrong. There is a plan. You follow the plan. You do everything in the order you lay it out and you learn. Each book you put out will be done a bit differently as you learn what works, and what doesn't.
We can control everything except the luck factor. I'd give my eye teeth for a bit of luck. I seem to always draw the hard work tag. There is no better teacher than just doing it. And if you fall short, so did Stephen King. Its a rare writer who hits the jack pot the first pull of the lever. You just keep trying over and over until you hit.
|
|
|
HTRYN
Oct 11, 2016 0:05:44 GMT
Post by bill on Oct 11, 2016 0:05:44 GMT
I need this kind of pep talk at least once a week!
I just put on my weekly list to do what you said - make a list of all my potential books to publish. I think the planning out how to release them will be fun for my mind to work through. If I could accept my first book was ready to go I could get excited and make a plan. I don't know if it's confidence, fear, doubt, or realistic concerns that hold me back. Maybe all of them. I have ideas on how to drum up interest and support, but I can't pull the trigger. Yesterday I thought I needed to work on it and resigned myself to waiting another year, and today I'm ready to plunge forward. Good grief!
|
|
|
HTRYN
Oct 11, 2016 2:17:53 GMT
Post by Admin on Oct 11, 2016 2:17:53 GMT
You work things through very much the way your mom did. Your thought processes are similar. I know what held me back. Lack of knowledge. You can study, and practice, and listen but you can't really know. You want to do things right. At least, I do. I want to be perceived by others as a professional. Even if I don't know what I'm doing I want to present myself in a professional manner. I knew I was jumping the gun when I put my first book out but I had gotten to a point where my 'not knowing how to do things' was freezing me up. I was second guessing myself all over the place. To the point where I was setting myself up for self-doubt.
Logically, I knew that doing it would be my best teacher. I knew that book #1 would not be my best book. If it was, I had no business being a writer. I was starting where I was with the knowledge that experience would teach me and I would grow in knowledge and ability. I knew, from writing for the paper, that my writing was tight, and clean, and commercial. Whether I could find a niche, a fan base, remains to be seen. Only time will give me that.
If you hit with a query, you'll have the advantage of guidance but I don't have the luxury of waiting. My time is short. My internal drive won't let me sit back. I am wading through the quicksand and hoping I don't sink. I like what I write. I think I have things to say that matter. I know I'm nowhere near the top of my ability. I have lots of room for growth. I'm not content to wait for life to find me. I need to cast out my lines and troll for all I'm worth.
I just keep trying different things. I remember what works. I discard what fails. Little by little I refine my approach. I just wish my home life was more helpful. It would be nice if I had a partner that encouraged me rather than hold me back. He doesn't see the value in what I do and that defeats me a bit. Makes my path harder.
|
|
|
HTRYN
Oct 11, 2016 14:48:59 GMT
Post by bill on Oct 11, 2016 14:48:59 GMT
Trying to write full-time is hard enough, I can't imagine doing it upstream like you are doing. But you're a fighter and not a quitter. I admire that in you. My writing is progressing in ways I hadn't even imagined, yet it all feels like it's going too slowly. The more I write the more I realize my writing needs work, which is a frustrating dichotomy. I'll keep fighting through and hope I emerge from this period with stronger skills, knowledge, and confidence. In the meantime... I continue to send queries but haven't received as much as a bite. I don't have any real hope that it will be picked up. Part of me is okay with that and part of me wants to see what someone would suggest for the story to sell it. Maybe that's the perfectionist side? I don't know. Maybe I should just set a date and release it on my own.
|
|
|
HTRYN
Oct 11, 2016 16:00:09 GMT
Post by Admin on Oct 11, 2016 16:00:09 GMT
If you are really doubtful and want feedback the person I use for editing also offers a content edit where they read strictly for continuity and clarity. But to be honest, I find content editing not very useful. Content is so subjective. What one person loves the next person may not get. I find an actual edit to be as useful for content as an actual content editing. A good beta reader is worth their weight in gold but again, you need someone who can verbalize plot weaknesses. Recognize errors in structure. An educated beta reader is hard to find. And finding one who can be constructive in a helpful manner is even harder. Having somebody tell you they love your work isn't very helpful. It feels good but you need to know why they feel that way as well as what falls flat or needs improved.
Its a fact that agents want writers who have already done the work. They want their clients to already have a platform. That is why I started 3 years before I published to gain a public persona. Why I continue to build my online presence. Not just in writing, but in a broader way. I use art, disability issues, photography, illustrating, personal journey, anything I can to get people to notice me and begin to know me. Its a fact that we buy from people we feel connected to.
So, my thinking was to begin to build the kind of public platform that would make me and my work more attractive to an agent. I don't think I'm there yet but I think Josh is almost set up for a contract. All I can advise is:
1. Write out a plan of action. Base it on what you know at this time. Lay out things you can do, and order if possible, so you can have a concrete, in writing idea of what you need to do and when.
2. Try to identify the strengths you have. What makes you unique or different. That would set you apart from the pack. (I did hire a publicist last fall and I learned a ton of stuff from him. I'll see if I can find the info he gave me and I'll pull out the highlights that might help you. I was amazed at what he told me. It cost me $500 and it was too soon. I did not plan on hiring a publicist until I had six books in my back list. But I was stuck. Frustrated. and needed some insight. He came to my attention in a way that made me feel a tap on my shoulder telling me to pay attention so I took the leap of faith. His price was what I had budgeted in my head for marketing/publicity. So I spent the whole wad on him and it was exactly what I needed at that point in time.)
3. Once you have a plan of action. FOLLOW IT. I can't stress this enough. When you start to do things and nothing happens, you begin to question yourself. You start to spin in all directions and that only takes you in a circle. Following your plan will take you forward. You have to trust your plan and follow it to the end. Give it a chance to work. Nothing in this field moves fast. It's like rolling the eternal rock up the mountain. Its hard, its tedious, it can be dispiriting, but you have to trust that eventually you'll reach a place where gravity, or momentum, or whatever you want to call it will begin to help you.
I'll look up the info from the publicist and share it. He had a ton of things that helped.
|
|
|
HTRYN
Oct 11, 2016 20:22:29 GMT
Post by bill on Oct 11, 2016 20:22:29 GMT
I have doubts, but I've already paid an editor. My doubts most likely stem from my fears. I have no doubt I'm going to see this through, spend the next several years trying to get a writing career off the ground. But I won't be surprised if my doubts and fears cause me to stray off the path and delay my actions. Maybe (probably?) already have. That's one of the barriers in front of me I need to climb over. I know I'll do it (at least try), I just don't know when.
I have it on my list for this week to develop a publishing schedule. I think I'm leaning toward including Flipper on that schedule. Part of me just wants to set a date and aim for it. If I do it will also push me forward with the subsequent books. I want to release them as quickly and as consistently as I can.
If the only thing keeping me from getting an agent is a platform then I would just prefer to publish myself, I think. That's one of the main reasons I want an agent - marketing and distributing the book.
|
|
|
HTRYN
Oct 11, 2016 22:19:11 GMT
Post by Admin on Oct 11, 2016 22:19:11 GMT
and the honest truth is that even with an agent a good deal of the marketing will fall on you. My decision to go independent was mostly based on numbers. If you look at the royalty pay out going independent gives you all of the work and approximately 75% of the royalty. If you go traditional, you'll still have a lions share of the work and only, if you're lucky, about 15% of the royalty. Add to that you have total control as an independent and very little control as a traditional.
For me, it was the Little Red Hen mentality. If I have to do all of the work, the prep, the cooking, the serving, then I want the credit and the profit, if any.
That said, I see some value in having a traditional publishing career in addition to an independent one. 1. the respect that comes with a traditional career. the prejudice against self-publishing still exists. And I do make a distinction between self-publishing and Independent. I find myself not liking self-publishing but I have great respect for independent publishing.
2. Traditional publishing still has a better distribution record. They can get books into libraries and book stores way better than an independent author can. I want that added exposure and, if the book hits, there is a better chance of selling media rights. Other than that, I'm just as content to build an independent career. The biggest problem is visibility. Don McCauley (the publicist,) told me I was doing everything right. I was just doing it too small so some of my attention has to be on getting myself seen by hundreds of thousands instead of just hundreds.
|
|
|
HTRYN
Oct 11, 2016 23:19:11 GMT
Post by bill on Oct 11, 2016 23:19:11 GMT
I think part of the reason I want to go traditional is to pass on the responsibility of the final product. I like my story a lot, but am worried it's not good enough. I think if I can find a professional to say, 'do this and we can sell it' I would feel better. I guess maybe I'm looking for an outside source of validation; a boost of confidence. When I took the CPA exam I started with the section I thought was my strength and that I had the best chance of passing. I knew if I failed that first one it could set me back. Once I passed it I cruised through the other three parts.
I think at some point making a traditional deal could be beneficial. I like your hybrid idea. Even giving up royalties for the traditional deal, if you gain readers then they will likely buy your other books. I think it would create some good synergy.
|
|
|
HTRYN
Oct 12, 2016 1:33:39 GMT
Post by Admin on Oct 12, 2016 1:33:39 GMT
I'm going to give you my Marti lecture. And one that I think she totally didn't 'get'. Marti and I have been best friends all through high school. She was a year behind me and she was a type A personality who wanted straight A's. We used to tease her that when a test was scheduled and she didn't feel prepared she would be sick on that day and take a make up test. She denies this but I bet if you asked Nyla, you'd hear the same story. Marti did not, and does not, like second place.
Anyway, I told her when she first went after the writing, (and she'll tell you she's been going after it since she was in high school but her reality and mine do not agree.) She was sitting on her rear waiting when we reconnected and she found out I was actively pursuing a career. Anyway, when she started, I told her what I'm going to tell you.
There are no tests you can take to be a writer and know you'll make A's on. There is no way to validate whether your work is good, or not. You can't even count on readership because without visibility you can't get a proper amount of data to know if your work is good or not.
There will always be readers who 'get' you and readers who don't.
You will never learn it 'all'. Writing is a progression. You start in one place and you work toward another. You absorb, you learn, you study, you practice. If you let fear hold you back you will never know if you can succeed. You will never write without wanting to 'edit'.
Your work will always have room for improvement. That is actually one of the reasons I write. I like challenge. I like reaching for a goal that is always just beyond my reach. I need that stubborn, bull-headed nature I'm so full of as the cattle prod urging me forward.That doesn't take away the frustration, the bouts of depression, and the despair I sometimes feel of ever succeeding. I'm such a weird combination of joy and agony.
To be an effective writer we have to learn to write with absolute honesty. This means we have to lay ourselves bare. There are no secrets we have from the reader. If we hold back, they will feel it, and we won't be giving them the message that drove us to write in the first place. It takes a lot of strength to be vulnerable. And humble. I have never been so humble as I am when writing something that rips my heart out.
I guess what I'm saying is fear can't be given strength. It will hold you back. Keep you down. Undermine your confidence. And fear is sneaky. It can show up in ways that you don't recognize.
Just keep putting your work out there. I call it casting bread upon the water. And I picture it as a form of faith. I'm not responsible for where my words fall. I'm only responsible for getting them out to the world. I trust God to put them where they need to be. I hope that, at some point, I can make a living. That would be an incredible feeling. I do think I'm doing what I'm supposed to do. I could use more validation but not having it won't stop me. That voice in my head and more importantly, lives in my heart, tells me to do this. Until that internal shove stops, I will keep pursuing my goals.
I think what you're feeling is normal. I think it can keep you from doing what you need to do. Make your plan. When you make the plan be on the left side, maybe a bit right brain because creativity can enhance marketing, but mostly be logical. Work it out in a methodical, logical progression. Make it easy enough that you succeed in goals you can achieve. Hitting smaller goals, often, can keep you chugging away toward the big goals.
Marti ignored my lecture. You're welcome to let it slide on past. But I do think it's important to know, right up front, that you're going to be mostly alone on this journey. Your own drive is going to have to sustain you. Not everybody has that much internal combustion. I've seen your competitive nature. I think you'll go for this with everything that is in you. For what it's worth. I think your skill level is ready. What you lack is experience and you only get that by doing it.
|
|
|
HTRYN
Oct 12, 2016 2:50:55 GMT
Post by bill on Oct 12, 2016 2:50:55 GMT
Yes, I need to hear this! I will post my publishing schedule in the next few days for accountability. Time to pick up some steam...
|
|